Journals of the Senate
52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 68
Friday, June 13, 2003
9:00 a.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Cools, Cordy, Day, Di Nino, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, *Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Cools, Cordy, Day, Di Nino, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, *LaPierre, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Stollery, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs, tabled its Fourth Report (Interim) entitled: Uncertain Access: The Consequences of U.S. Security and Trade Actions for Canadian Trade Policy (Volume 1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-514S.
The Honourable Senator Stollery moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Government Bills
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-47, An Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 2004, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., tabled the following:
Reply to Question No. 3, dated October 2, 2002, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Forrestall, respecting the Defence budget.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-515S.
Reply to Question No. 70, dated February 25, 2003, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act—Department of Veterans Affairs.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37- 463S.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Third reading of Bill C-28, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 18, 2003.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Bill be read the third time.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Beaudoin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bolduc, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 64, on page 55:
(a) by replacing line 19, with the following:
"into force on December 17, 1990, except in respect of cases in which school authorities and lawyers representing Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada have agreed to file consents to judgment before the appropriate court.''; and
(b) by deleting lines 20 to 39.
After debate,
A Point of Order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion in amendment.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
I should like to point out that the bill we are debating has received the Royal Recommendation. The second thing I should like to do is to read the rule of the Senate that, I believe, is relevant to this point of order. Rule 81 states that:
The Senate shall not proceed upon a bill appropriating public money that has not within the knowledge of the Senate been recommended by the Queen's representative.
I will deal first with the timeliness of Senator Gauthier raising the point of order because it is an important question. Senator Murray argues that once debate has commenced, it is not within the practices of this place, either by the rules or by the precedents, to do something to interfere with that debate for procedural reasons. I find that this is not what Senator Gauthier is doing. He raised this matter in committee and explained that he voted in a certain way because of his reservation about the Senate being able to proceed as we are on this question, and he is simply raising it again here at this point.
The real question is this: Is this amendment to the bill that carries the Royal Recommendation one with which we can deal?
The other interesting argument is that once the Royal Recommendation is given to a bill, does that open the door for Parliament, including the Senate, to do anything with it by way of spending additional money, simply because the bill carries the Royal Recommendation? My ruling on that question would be that the Royal Recommendation being given to a bill — a money bill, as we call it — does not open the door for this place to pass amendments to spend more money, or as our rule indicates, to appropriate public money. That is the province of the House of Commons, in my interpretation of this rule.
I do not want to get into the Constitution or into questions of law because it is not proper for me to do so. However, let me accept that Senator Beaudoin's point is to address something that is res judicata; that is, a court has decided that Canada is obliged to do something that involves the expenditure of money. Is it something that takes the Senate to a place where it could introduce a measure such as an amendment to a money bill, which Senator Beaudoin's amendment is, that removes the impediment to the Senate of not being able to appropriate money? My finding is that it does not do that. The spending of money, or appropriation of money, to use the wording of the rule, is not something we can do.
That brings me to Senator Murray's point, which is that the Senate has in the past received amendments which if passed would mandate the reduction of monies flowing to the general revenue for whatever reason. I do not believe that falls within the wording of "appropriation.'' That matter, I believe, is quite well settled; that is, the Senate could defeat a money bill or reduce expenditures. However, increasing the expenditures is the question.
I premise my ruling on my belief, based on my close attention to the comments of senators who spoke to the bill, that the amendment would involve the spending of additional monies to comply with, as has been described in the debate, a decision of the court that Canada is obliged to follow.
As painful as it is for me to do this, I find that the motion in amendment is not in order in that it is not in compliance with our rules because it does not carry the Royal Recommendation as to the additional expenditure of money that would be required. The fact that the question is res judicata does not change our rule in respect of dealing with an amendment that would involve appropriating or spending more money.
I rule the motion in amendment out of order.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the third reading of Bill C-28, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 18, 2003.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Nolin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the Fifth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs (motion and Message concerning Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals)) presented in the Senate on June 12, 2003.
The Honourable Senator Furey moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-42, An Act respecting the protection of the Antarctic Environment, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-44, An Act to compensate military members injured during service, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Forrestall, that the Bill be read the second time now.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Forrestall, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-35, An Act to amend the National Defence Act (remuneration of military judges), to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 3 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 7 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Milne, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the adoption of the Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament (Senators Attendance Policy) presented in the Senate on June 12, 2003.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 to 9 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 86 (motion), 9 (inquiry), 130, 126, 5 (motions), 2, 14 (inquiries), 66, 121, 122 (motions), 16 (inquiry), 115 (motion), 17, 6, 11, 15, 21 (inquiries), 92 (motion), 22 (inquiry) and 91 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Cochrane calling the attention of the Senate to the state of air travel in Canada.
Debate concluded.
Resuming debate on the motion, as modified, of the Honourable Senator Callbeck, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs be authorized to study the status of Legal Aid in Canada and the difficulties experienced by many low-income Canadians in acquiring adequate legal aid for both criminal and civil matters; and
That the Committee report no later than December 31, 2003.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Chaput moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ringuette, that further debate on the motion, as modified, be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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With leave,
The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Monday, June 16, 2003, at 6:01 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 8 (2nd Supp.), s. 30.—Sessional Paper No. 2/ 37-505.
Summary of the Corporate Plan for 2004-2008 of the Business Development Bank of Canada, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-506.
Report of Farm Credit Canada, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 150(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-507.
Reports of the Department of the Environment for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-508.
Reports of the Canadian Transportation Agency for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-509.
Reports of the Jacques Cartier and Champlain Bridges Incorporated for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-510.
Reports of the Seaway International Bridge Corporation Ltd. for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/ 37-511.
Report on Port Divestiture and Operations for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Canada Marine Act, S.C. 1998, c. 10, sbs. 72(7).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-512.
Revised English version of the Report on Crown Corporations and Other Corporate Interests of Canada for the year 2002, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 151(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37- 513.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 12:45 p.m. the Senate was continued until Monday, June 16, 2003, at 6:01 p.m.)